raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica have you seem my Theory of Fun 10 Yrs Later talk? A LOT of commonality Btween it & yr new definition
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster ( Sorry I am not more well-read. Probably frustrating to have people proposing things you've already said :D )
@raphkoster ( Sorry I am not more well-read. Probably frustrating to have people proposing things you've already said :D )
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica no no... It's unreasonable to expect everyone to have read everything! I actually felt bad for asking bc there are too many
@helvetica no no... It's unreasonable to expect everyone to have read everything! I actually felt bad for asking bc there are too many
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica ones below a given persons threshold of interest are termed trivial and above are termed noise but that's subjextive
@helvetica ones below a given persons threshold of interest are termed trivial and above are termed noise but that's subjextive
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica approaching w a lusory attitude makes it into a game, as a process
@helvetica approaching w a lusory attitude makes it into a game, as a process
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica sometimes you solve it and the process ends and it stops being that as a process
@helvetica sometimes you solve it and the process ends and it stops being that as a process
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica and then there are artifacts (not neccessarily physical) which are designed to have this susceptibility to bring approached
@helvetica and then there are artifacts (not neccessarily physical) which are designed to have this susceptibility to bring approached
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica in this way. Some of them provide affordances, some affordances plus suggestions, some outright say this is yr goal
@helvetica in this way. Some of them provide affordances, some affordances plus suggestions, some outright say this is yr goal
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica we colloquially call these different things but in all cases we say we play with them
@helvetica we colloquially call these different things but in all cases we say we play with them
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica examples in order might be a musical instrument, a ball, and Halo.
@helvetica examples in order might be a musical instrument, a ball, and Halo.
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica common lingo has no name for the first, calls the second a toy *sometimes* and usually but not always calls the last "game"
@helvetica common lingo has no name for the first, calls the second a toy *sometimes* and usually but not always calls the last "game"
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica but the commonality lies in the process superimposed on the artifact/situation
@helvetica but the commonality lies in the process superimposed on the artifact/situation
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica there is a recognizable pattern to the ones that fall at the top end, call it a ludic pattern. And sometimes we design artifacts
@helvetica there is a recognizable pattern to the ones that fall at the top end, call it a ludic pattern. And sometimes we design artifacts
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica for this purpose intentionally. This has been called "game design" in the past but that term is failing us so ditch it
@helvetica for this purpose intentionally. This has been called "game design" in the past but that term is failing us so ditch it
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica game grammar style formalism is interested is what that ludic pattern is. And many of these other critical streams are
@helvetica game grammar style formalism is interested is what that ludic pattern is. And many of these other critical streams are
edclef
Ed Key
@raphkoster @helvetica I'll chip in to say that I've greatly enjoyed seeing some of these nuanced conversations unfold - thanks
@raphkoster @helvetica I'll chip in to say that I've greatly enjoyed seeing some of these nuanced conversations unfold - thanks
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@edclef @helvetica oh thx! Was pointing ppl to Proteus & notgames.org just yesterday :)
@edclef @helvetica oh thx! Was pointing ppl to Proteus & notgames.org just yesterday :)
edclef
Ed Key
@raphkoster @helvetica Ah really! at risk of being picky, I don't think of P as a "notgame" but some do...
@raphkoster @helvetica Ah really! at risk of being picky, I don't think of P as a "notgame" but some do...
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@edclef @helvetica no worries, it just happens to be listed among them the on that site
@edclef @helvetica no worries, it just happens to be listed among them the on that site
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@edclef @helvetica notgame isn't my term and actually I don't think I fully grok what they mean by it
@edclef @helvetica notgame isn't my term and actually I don't think I fully grok what they mean by it
edclef
Ed Key
@raphkoster @helvetica same - I mean, it fits ok, I just don't feel I "own" it either. and thanks!
@raphkoster @helvetica same - I mean, it fits ok, I just don't feel I "own" it either. and thanks!
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster haha oh my i took a shower and suddenly, 40 tweets! this weekend has got to be the longest convos anyones had on twitter
@edclef @raphkoster haha oh my i took a shower and suddenly, 40 tweets! this weekend has got to be the longest convos anyones had on twitter
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster that does sound like 90% overlap, although much better justified :). I found the talk and am gonna watch it!
@edclef @raphkoster that does sound like 90% overlap, although much better justified :). I found the talk and am gonna watch it!
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster i think i agree with most of what you said, and in general think your type of approach is super valid and intelligent!
@edclef @raphkoster i think i agree with most of what you said, and in general think your type of approach is super valid and intelligent!
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster I think my definition was proposed as a general community definition structured to lead to interesting conversation,
@edclef @raphkoster I think my definition was proposed as a general community definition structured to lead to interesting conversation,
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster instead of binary sorting. but also think binary sorting is super worthwhile! And your nuanced sorting/structure is good
@edclef @raphkoster instead of binary sorting. but also think binary sorting is super worthwhile! And your nuanced sorting/structure is good
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @edclef yes it degrades quickly taken out of context. I hope the nonce words help with that
@helvetica @edclef yes it degrades quickly taken out of context. I hope the nonce words help with that
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @edclef oh thx. I wish more if the discussion had been abt it's main point (empathy/understanding/communication) not formalism
@helvetica @edclef oh thx. I wish more if the discussion had been abt it's main point (empathy/understanding/communication) not formalism
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @edclef but it seems like any hint of that is inflammatory and distracts. My fault.
@helvetica @edclef but it seems like any hint of that is inflammatory and distracts. My fault.
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef well thats the danger of being part of a very very heated debate though, I would try not to sweat it too much
@raphkoster @edclef well thats the danger of being part of a very very heated debate though, I would try not to sweat it too much
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef yeah i think there was a lot of this that was brutal and unhealthy, but there was a lot of good stuff too
@raphkoster @edclef yeah i think there was a lot of this that was brutal and unhealthy, but there was a lot of good stuff too
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef its very frustrating to me that it went down this way. which i think is why i tried to insert myself and help translate
@raphkoster @edclef its very frustrating to me that it went down this way. which i think is why i tried to insert myself and help translate
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef so anyway I’m glad things are slowing down, and I’m sorry it was so stressful for you and so many people
@raphkoster @edclef so anyway I’m glad things are slowing down, and I’m sorry it was so stressful for you and so many people
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef I think its interesting when you look at how difficult things have been for experimental games for a very long time
@raphkoster @edclef I think its interesting when you look at how difficult things have been for experimental games for a very long time
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef like i remember last year at the EXPERIMENTAL gameplay workshop, they apologized before the talk about glitchhiker
@raphkoster @edclef like i remember last year at the EXPERIMENTAL gameplay workshop, they apologized before the talk about glitchhiker
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef because the talk would have a lot of talk in it. weird! so I’m glad that finally there is some eruption about this stuff
@raphkoster @edclef because the talk would have a lot of talk in it. weird! so I’m glad that finally there is some eruption about this stuff
edclef
Ed Key
@helvetica @raphkoster Sure, "yes/no" answers are troublesome in general it seems. I guess I'm mostly concerned by the commercial reality..
@helvetica @raphkoster Sure, "yes/no" answers are troublesome in general it seems. I guess I'm mostly concerned by the commercial reality..
edclef
Ed Key
@helvetica @raphkoster ...of what to "sell" something as, where that thing is a weird fuzzy case. Definitions and formalisms(?) are great as
@helvetica @raphkoster ...of what to "sell" something as, where that thing is a weird fuzzy case. Definitions and formalisms(?) are great as
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster I’m not sure I agree. definitions don’t dictate anything at all. You can contextualize your work however you want
@edclef @raphkoster I’m not sure I agree. definitions don’t dictate anything at all. You can contextualize your work however you want
edclef
Ed Key
@helvetica @raphkoster Sure, but several commentators do use def'ns to try and dictate, that's what I mean. (The good ones don't)
@helvetica @raphkoster Sure, but several commentators do use def'ns to try and dictate, that's what I mean. (The good ones don't)
edclef
Ed Key
@helvetica @raphkoster tools for discussion and development, but awful as normative statements about what should exist.
@helvetica @raphkoster tools for discussion and development, but awful as normative statements about what should exist.
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster I think when you make a thing, part of that thing is the words spoken around it, and the context you set is a huge part
@edclef @raphkoster I think when you make a thing, part of that thing is the words spoken around it, and the context you set is a huge part
edclef
Ed Key
@helvetica @raphkoster Anyway, that's my quota of tweets done! thanks for the intelligent writings. I'll look up the "10 years" talk too
@helvetica @raphkoster Anyway, that's my quota of tweets done! thanks for the intelligent writings. I'll look up the "10 years" talk too
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster also think for discussion/dev, most rigid definitions aren’t helpful, because rigidity can lead to shutting down ideas
@edclef @raphkoster also think for discussion/dev, most rigid definitions aren’t helpful, because rigidity can lead to shutting down ideas
edclef
Ed Key
@helvetica @raphkoster ahh, agreed, good point. I'm not exactly sure what I mean - perhaps a per-project definition
@helvetica @raphkoster ahh, agreed, good point. I'm not exactly sure what I mean - perhaps a per-project definition
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@edclef @helvetica for the purposes of selling I learned long ago that whatever the audience's term is will win.
@edclef @helvetica for the purposes of selling I learned long ago that whatever the audience's term is will win.
edclef
Ed Key
@raphkoster @helvetica Right, I wonder how well I judged this.. also wonder/worry about increased audience conservatism
@raphkoster @helvetica Right, I wonder how well I judged this.. also wonder/worry about increased audience conservatism
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster I think if there is one thing the internet has taught us, is that it is a bludgeon against conservatism
@edclef @raphkoster I think if there is one thing the internet has taught us, is that it is a bludgeon against conservatism
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @edclef noooo... It reinforces echo chambers too. Not clear cut... Cf The Filter Bubble.
@helvetica @edclef noooo... It reinforces echo chambers too. Not clear cut... Cf The Filter Bubble.
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef it does. but broadly, i think it opens up the world to a lot more people than cluster amongst themselves
@raphkoster @edclef it does. but broadly, i think it opens up the world to a lot more people than cluster amongst themselves
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@edclef @helvetica I think they are less conservative than ever--in some segments. :) like mass market is still very conservative
@edclef @helvetica I think they are less conservative than ever--in some segments. :) like mass market is still very conservative
doougle
Douglas Wilson
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica fwiw I feel this is precisely the wrong takeaway, and helps illuminate my hesitation w/ your post Raph?
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica fwiw I feel this is precisely the wrong takeaway, and helps illuminate my hesitation w/ your post Raph?
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@doougle @edclef @helvetica let me put it this way... If you want to maintain the relationship with a customer you can broaden their
@doougle @edclef @helvetica let me put it this way... If you want to maintain the relationship with a customer you can broaden their
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@doougle @edclef @helvetica expectations but not contradict them. Otherwise you tend to lose them.
@doougle @edclef @helvetica expectations but not contradict them. Otherwise you tend to lose them.
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef well but thats looking at the space as a set of people you have to convince, not a set of people to cultivate
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef well but thats looking at the space as a set of people you have to convince, not a set of people to cultivate
doougle
Douglas Wilson
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica Part of the good "work" Ed+David did (intentionally or not) was framing Proteus a productive way.
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica Part of the good "work" Ed+David did (intentionally or not) was framing Proteus a productive way.
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef with indies and digital distribution and lifestyle-busiensses you can cultivate a community around your context
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef with indies and digital distribution and lifestyle-busiensses you can cultivate a community around your context
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and then that context bleeds out into the larger community because the small communities get bigger and the..
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and then that context bleeds out into the larger community because the small communities get bigger and the..
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef work becomes more exciting. I think thats whats beautiful about the space. you can succeed with whatever msg...
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef work becomes more exciting. I think thats whats beautiful about the space. you can succeed with whatever msg...
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef you want to send, as long as you are clear in your communication
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef you want to send, as long as you are clear in your communication
edclef
Ed Key
@helvetica @raphkoster @doougle Agree - it's tough (for me) and I'm not 100% we nailed it, but it did ok for us (practically speaking)
@helvetica @raphkoster @doougle Agree - it's tough (for me) and I'm not 100% we nailed it, but it did ok for us (practically speaking)
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @doougle @edclef we used to frame it as "the path to the broad audience is through the core"... The core is whoever is already
@helvetica @doougle @edclef we used to frame it as "the path to the broad audience is through the core"... The core is whoever is already
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @doougle @edclef in your community. (Eg doesn't mean aaa hardcore)
@helvetica @doougle @edclef in your community. (Eg doesn't mean aaa hardcore)
doougle
Douglas Wilson
@helvetica @raphkoster @edclef Fuck I have to go to dinner. I guess I should try to write a post or something, 140 chars is impossible!
@helvetica @raphkoster @edclef Fuck I have to go to dinner. I guess I should try to write a post or something, 140 chars is impossible!
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef I think the key here, is that how people talk about their work, is part of their work (situated context)...
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef I think the key here, is that how people talk about their work, is part of their work (situated context)...
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and so its very understandable that people are upset, when that part of their work is besieged as baseless
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and so its very understandable that people are upset, when that part of their work is besieged as baseless
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @doougle @edclef yes. seeing outside of contexts is hard. & talking out from them carries invisible context as baggage
@helvetica @doougle @edclef yes. seeing outside of contexts is hard. & talking out from them carries invisible context as baggage
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @doougle @edclef "besieged" is a tiny example of that. :) it sets off a reaction of "I'm not surging you!" And it all spirals out
@helvetica @doougle @edclef "besieged" is a tiny example of that. :) it sets off a reaction of "I'm not surging you!" And it all spirals out
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef yep! which is why twitter is a terrible place to have these conversations :p I picked besieged because it fit
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef yep! which is why twitter is a terrible place to have these conversations :p I picked besieged because it fit
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @doougle @edclef into defensiveness. Happens from all sides in all directions. Sensitivity & communication is the only solution
@helvetica @doougle @edclef into defensiveness. Happens from all sides in all directions. Sensitivity & communication is the only solution
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @doougle @edclef bc wherever the ACTUAL siege army is, they are all our enemy
@helvetica @doougle @edclef bc wherever the ACTUAL siege army is, they are all our enemy
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @doougle @edclef and I DO think there is a siege happening btw, it is very real
@helvetica @doougle @edclef and I DO think there is a siege happening btw, it is very real
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and i know thats not what you’re doing :) it just seemed like a way to sum some of this up
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and i know thats not what you’re doing :) it just seemed like a way to sum some of this up
doougle
Douglas Wilson
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica Cultural context is such a key part of "gameness" and is itself is a fruitful design locus/consideration.
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica Cultural context is such a key part of "gameness" and is itself is a fruitful design locus/consideration.
doougle
Douglas Wilson
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica It's a triumph of Proteus/Dear Esther (or rather, their creators) that they *were* framed as videogames
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica It's a triumph of Proteus/Dear Esther (or rather, their creators) that they *were* framed as videogames
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@doougle @edclef @helvetica I think the framing of them was great. But I think a very important part of that framing was "a game of..."
@doougle @edclef @helvetica I think the framing of them was great. But I think a very important part of that framing was "a game of..."
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@doougle @edclef @helvetica that's what I mean by broadening and not contradicting. Even then many felt contradicted, you know.
@doougle @edclef @helvetica that's what I mean by broadening and not contradicting. Even then many felt contradicted, you know.
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@doougle @edclef @helvetica so I agree with you but speaking in a practical marketing context we will fail if we push the audience too hard
@doougle @edclef @helvetica so I agree with you but speaking in a practical marketing context we will fail if we push the audience too hard
doougle
Douglas Wilson
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica Right but then the interesting question becomes how can you push, and where/when/how.
@raphkoster @edclef @helvetica Right but then the interesting question becomes how can you push, and where/when/how.
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@doougle @edclef @helvetica yup. Like Corrypt is an interesting example. It has two natural audiences and it sits in a tricky place
@doougle @edclef @helvetica yup. Like Corrypt is an interesting example. It has two natural audiences and it sits in a tricky place
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@doougle @edclef @helvetica speaking to both indie and a very mainstream puzzle game player
@doougle @edclef @helvetica speaking to both indie and a very mainstream puzzle game player
smestorp
Michael Brough
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef @helvetica does it take the union or the intersection of those audiences? (HINT: INTERSECTION)
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef @helvetica does it take the union or the intersection of those audiences? (HINT: INTERSECTION)
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica I am unsurprised to hear that tho sad. That's what I meant abt the risk of customer expectation
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica I am unsurprised to hear that tho sad. That's what I meant abt the risk of customer expectation
smestorp
Michael Brough
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef @helvetica no big deal, i made it out of pure hedonism and it still reached more people than i expected
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef @helvetica no big deal, i made it out of pure hedonism and it still reached more people than i expected
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica as an artist it is all about the practice and your own goals anyway.
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica as an artist it is all about the practice and your own goals anyway.
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica selling and you know, eating, they are peripheral in that sense. :)
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica selling and you know, eating, they are peripheral in that sense. :)
smestorp
Michael Brough
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef @helvetica sorry for butting in without anything to contribute anyway, i was just excited to be exampled
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef @helvetica sorry for butting in without anything to contribute anyway, i was just excited to be exampled
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica heh and here I was scared I'd offend you too! I am SO gunshy now
@smestorp @doougle @edclef @helvetica heh and here I was scared I'd offend you too! I am SO gunshy now
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef there are people out there who want to be pushed hard. The key is carefully targeting (clear communication)..
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef there are people out there who want to be pushed hard. The key is carefully targeting (clear communication)..
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and then using that audience as a starting-space to grow the reach of your message
@raphkoster @doougle @edclef and then using that audience as a starting-space to grow the reach of your message
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster and thats why loose definitions are useful. they let you propose new things and discuss them within contexts easily
@edclef @raphkoster and thats why loose definitions are useful. they let you propose new things and discuss them within contexts easily
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef what i was saying with binary was that EVEN binary sorting can be valuable in certain contexts. so anything < is ok too
@raphkoster @edclef what i was saying with binary was that EVEN binary sorting can be valuable in certain contexts. so anything < is ok too
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster its just that type of sorting is more valid in specific contexts where shorthand definitions are required
@edclef @raphkoster its just that type of sorting is more valid in specific contexts where shorthand definitions are required
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster and usually people in those situations understand their shortcomings (& its been super clear from the start that you do)
@edclef @raphkoster and usually people in those situations understand their shortcomings (& its been super clear from the start that you do)
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster but blog comments and casual community magazine articles are less and less the right community for that type of def.
@edclef @raphkoster but blog comments and casual community magazine articles are less and less the right community for that type of def.
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @edclef I feel like the larger community still should have this sort of discussion but the words are getting in the way so
@helvetica @edclef I feel like the larger community still should have this sort of discussion but the words are getting in the way so
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@helvetica @edclef blowing up some defs and rearranging for the sake if everyone's sanity is healthy
@helvetica @edclef blowing up some defs and rearranging for the sake if everyone's sanity is healthy
helvetica
Zach Gage
@raphkoster @edclef yes I agree. And I very much look forward to what comes out of all this talk.
@raphkoster @edclef yes I agree. And I very much look forward to what comes out of all this talk.
helvetica
Zach Gage
@edclef @raphkoster so anyway, basically we are on the same page but with some nuance :)
@edclef @raphkoster so anyway, basically we are on the same page but with some nuance :)
edclef
Ed Key
@raphkoster @helvetica ...on the other hand I *love* the idea & name of "ludic artifacts" - a polysyllabic term I can get behind
@raphkoster @helvetica ...on the other hand I *love* the idea & name of "ludic artifacts" - a polysyllabic term I can get behind
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@edclef @helvetica I am actually thinking if calling them just Lude, ludes in the plural, though that does have the drug ref. there are
@edclef @helvetica I am actually thinking if calling them just Lude, ludes in the plural, though that does have the drug ref. there are
raphkoster
Raph Koster
@edclef @helvetica diff reasons why I actually find that humorously apropos (related to their biochem function as learning systems)
@edclef @helvetica diff reasons why I actually find that humorously apropos (related to their biochem function as learning systems)
still
Matthew Franklin
@raphkoster @helvetica that was awesome. Now I really need to check out 10 years later.
@raphkoster @helvetica that was awesome. Now I really need to check out 10 years later.