maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
.@Asher_Wolf @ioerror There's an object lesson about consent here; I hope people take it.
ioerror
Jacob Appelbaum
@maradydd @Asher_Wolf What is the lesson you think I should be learning exactly here Meredith?
@maradydd @Asher_Wolf What is the lesson you think I should be learning exactly here Meredith?
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror That it's best to ask someone what "on their behalf" means to them before purposing to act on their behalf. That's all.
@ioerror That it's best to ask someone what "on their behalf" means to them before purposing to act on their behalf. That's all.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror Of course not, why conflate them? Both happen on behalf of other people/groups, so the distinction's irrelevant here.
@ioerror Of course not, why conflate them? Both happen on behalf of other people/groups, so the distinction's irrelevant here.
ioerror
Jacob Appelbaum
@maradydd If one makes a call for the community to take action, I hardly think that an action of solidarity requires further permission.
@maradydd If one makes a call for the community to take action, I hardly think that an action of solidarity requires further permission.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror I get where you're coming from, but if you make an offer in solidarity & it's refused, it's incumbent on you to accept gracefully.
@ioerror I get where you're coming from, but if you make an offer in solidarity & it's refused, it's incumbent on you to accept gracefully.
ioerror
Jacob Appelbaum
@maradydd I closed the chipin when requested. At first it was welcomed and @Asher_Wolf thanked people for kicking in the money.
@maradydd I closed the chipin when requested. At first it was welcomed and @Asher_Wolf thanked people for kicking in the money.
ioerror
Jacob Appelbaum
@maradydd @Asher_Wolf Indeed and none the less, it undermines the permission model suggested.
@maradydd @Asher_Wolf Indeed and none the less, it undermines the permission model suggested.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror What I see here is that after @Asher_Wolf changed her mind, you continue to pester her about this. Why is that?
@ioerror What I see here is that after @Asher_Wolf changed her mind, you continue to pester her about this. Why is that?
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror Also, what we're really talking about here is consent. @Asher_Wolf withdrew hers, and that ought to have been the end of it.
@ioerror Also, what we're really talking about here is consent. @Asher_Wolf withdrew hers, and that ought to have been the end of it.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror @Asher_Wolf Consider: western society particularly conditions women to express gratitude, even when they don't feel it.
@ioerror @Asher_Wolf Consider: western society particularly conditions women to express gratitude, even when they don't feel it.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror That's why it's called an offer. Otherwise it would be a forcing of solidarity, and, eww, squick.
@ioerror That's why it's called an offer. Otherwise it would be a forcing of solidarity, and, eww, squick.
ioerror
Jacob Appelbaum
@maradydd Solidarity is not an offer per se - it may be an action taken in support of a thing, it may be something else.
@maradydd Solidarity is not an offer per se - it may be an action taken in support of a thing, it may be something else.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror Here, the action took the form of an offer made to a person. Stop mincing words.
@ioerror Here, the action took the form of an offer made to a person. Stop mincing words.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I am not sure I am comfortable forcing a consent model on this.
@maradydd @ioerror I am not sure I am comfortable forcing a consent model on this.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror You have to acknowledge the possibility that the "victim" will find victim-roleplay rhetorically powerful...
@maradydd @ioerror You have to acknowledge the possibility that the "victim" will find victim-roleplay rhetorically powerful...
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror ...and refuse to consent to any remedial action in order to keep hold of the powerful status.
@maradydd @ioerror ...and refuse to consent to any remedial action in order to keep hold of the powerful status.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I don't think the person at issue is at all genuine about their alleged problems with 'the community.'
@maradydd @ioerror I don't think the person at issue is at all genuine about their alleged problems with 'the community.'
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I think there was a strategic placement of hacker/gender trigger phrases to coax support from targeted constituencies.
@maradydd @ioerror I think there was a strategic placement of hacker/gender trigger phrases to coax support from targeted constituencies.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror I don't think there's anything prima facie wrong with rhetorically eliciting support. See: Wikileaks.
@x7o @ioerror I don't think there's anything prima facie wrong with rhetorically eliciting support. See: Wikileaks.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror It is increasingly doubtful to me that sexism was operative in at least two of the three named person's episodes.
@maradydd @ioerror It is increasingly doubtful to me that sexism was operative in at least two of the three named person's episodes.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror I accept that as a plausible reading and still think there's important discussion to be had about communication problems, ...
@x7o @ioerror I accept that as a plausible reading and still think there's important discussion to be had about communication problems, ...
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror ... strategies for addressing them, and (more generally) the role that unexamined bias can play in impairing communication.
@x7o @ioerror ... strategies for addressing them, and (more generally) the role that unexamined bias can play in impairing communication.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror ISTM that technical/non-technical bias played a stronger role than gender bias, but it didn't happen to me.
@x7o @ioerror ISTM that technical/non-technical bias played a stronger role than gender bias, but it didn't happen to me.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror Yeah, that seems a much fairer assessment. But even then, I think there was less to hang the targets on than the shooter.
@maradydd @ioerror Yeah, that seems a much fairer assessment. But even then, I think there was less to hang the targets on than the shooter.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I have no doubt sexism was involved in the experience of community organizing. That seems highly probable.
@maradydd @ioerror I have no doubt sexism was involved in the experience of community organizing. That seems highly probable.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I am skeptical that the purpose of the post was to even confrontationally resolve issues of sexism within the community.
@maradydd @ioerror I am skeptical that the purpose of the post was to even confrontationally resolve issues of sexism within the community.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror Instead, it seems to me, it was a misdirected expression of sometimes justified, sometimes unjustified, polyspecific rage
@maradydd @ioerror Instead, it seems to me, it was a misdirected expression of sometimes justified, sometimes unjustified, polyspecific rage
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror It is perfectly understandable and part of life when someone lashes out at another for what turns out to be nothing.
@maradydd @ioerror It is perfectly understandable and part of life when someone lashes out at another for what turns out to be nothing.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror What isn't so normal, at least in my experience, is one of them trying to induce thousands of others to take a corner.
@maradydd @ioerror What isn't so normal, at least in my experience, is one of them trying to induce thousands of others to take a corner.
CelaenoHybrid
CelaenoHybrid
@x7o @maradydd @ioerror Jump @ stage2, considered to be normal there already. breakthrough.ie/articleissues/…
@x7o @maradydd @ioerror Jump @ stage2, considered to be normal there already. breakthrough.ie/articleissues/…
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@CelaenoHybrid @x7o @ioerror thought-provoking, and also timely. much obliged.
@CelaenoHybrid @x7o @ioerror thought-provoking, and also timely. much obliged.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror We also must consider the possibility that possibility that, at the outset, not all pretexts are genuine.
@maradydd @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror We also must consider the possibility that possibility that, at the outset, not all pretexts are genuine.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror Stage 1 in this model, for instance, does not apply to Bush II admin's 'conflict' with Iraq.
@maradydd @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror Stage 1 in this model, for instance, does not apply to Bush II admin's 'conflict' with Iraq.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror Sometimes, people fight others to gain strategic advantage, or to eradicate competition, or for pleasure.
@maradydd @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror Sometimes, people fight others to gain strategic advantage, or to eradicate competition, or for pleasure.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror Indeed. Determination of motive is among the wickedest of wicked problems; I try not to get bogged down in ...
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror Indeed. Determination of motive is among the wickedest of wicked problems; I try not to get bogged down in ...
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror ... unanswerable questions of mens rea, but rather focus on how the iterated process of communication ...
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror ... unanswerable questions of mens rea, but rather focus on how the iterated process of communication ...
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror I operate from the assumption that a party acting in good faith will take actions that they perceive as ...
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror I operate from the assumption that a party acting in good faith will take actions that they perceive as ...
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror ... improving that faith, and employ it as a smoke test when circumstances call for it.
@x7o @CelaenoHybrid @ioerror ... improving that faith, and employ it as a smoke test when circumstances call for it.
CelaenoHybrid
CelaenoHybrid
@x7o @maradydd @ioerror This stuff gets clipped round your ears on every conf.res.seminar.Squishy in parts, but interesting & can be useful.
@x7o @maradydd @ioerror This stuff gets clipped round your ears on every conf.res.seminar.Squishy in parts, but interesting & can be useful.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror This is why I am also skeptical of the rhetoric, which has lately been adopted, of denouncing "taking sides."
@maradydd @ioerror This is why I am also skeptical of the rhetoric, which has lately been adopted, of denouncing "taking sides."
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror The original point of the whole thing was to induce constituencies to take sides.
@maradydd @ioerror The original point of the whole thing was to induce constituencies to take sides.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror My gut hypothesis is that highly reputation-driven social systems are particularly prone to this kind of "turf war."
@x7o @ioerror My gut hypothesis is that highly reputation-driven social systems are particularly prone to this kind of "turf war."
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror That is to say, that a more directly connected graph is less susceptible to "taking sides," or perhaps experiences less ...
@x7o @ioerror That is to say, that a more directly connected graph is less susceptible to "taking sides," or perhaps experiences less ...
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror i was a little horrified at the thoughtless adoption of the sexism narrative against people who had not yet been heard.
@maradydd @ioerror i was a little horrified at the thoughtless adoption of the sexism narrative against people who had not yet been heard.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror by people whose career is, at least in part, tending to the mediated perception of hackerdom and gender.
@maradydd @ioerror by people whose career is, at least in part, tending to the mediated perception of hackerdom and gender.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I don't for a moment want to suggest that those aren't extremely fraught and important issues.
@maradydd @ioerror I don't for a moment want to suggest that those aren't extremely fraught and important issues.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror Only that the very nature of having analytical biases, cultivated for the best of reasons, is that you can be played.
@maradydd @ioerror Only that the very nature of having analytical biases, cultivated for the best of reasons, is that you can be played.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror This, while bearing in mind an enormous power asymmetry evinced by comparative Twitter followerships.
@maradydd @ioerror This, while bearing in mind an enormous power asymmetry evinced by comparative Twitter followerships.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror And when I say "been heard" I wince because the original thrust drives everything public in the end and that shouldn't be
@maradydd @ioerror And when I say "been heard" I wince because the original thrust drives everything public in the end and that shouldn't be
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror The problem with witchhunts is that sometimes the 'witches' are innocent, but a witchhunt must have its pound of flesh.
@maradydd @ioerror The problem with witchhunts is that sometimes the 'witches' are innocent, but a witchhunt must have its pound of flesh.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I found the unsophisticated rhetorical celebration of "name and shame" troubling, given the dynamics of crowds.
@maradydd @ioerror I found the unsophisticated rhetorical celebration of "name and shame" troubling, given the dynamics of crowds.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror Crowds have been an instrument of power since there were crowds. But they're still hard to understand, hard to predict.
@x7o @ioerror Crowds have been an instrument of power since there were crowds. But they're still hard to understand, hard to predict.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@x7o @ioerror ... disruption when constituencies do take sides, for some measure of disruption. Obviously I'm grasping for metrics here.
@x7o @ioerror ... disruption when constituencies do take sides, for some measure of disruption. Obviously I'm grasping for metrics here.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror I agree with you, though, the structure of the tree in this case exacerbated initial wrongs.
@maradydd @ioerror I agree with you, though, the structure of the tree in this case exacerbated initial wrongs.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror couldn't do anything right, because he was a designated fall guy.
@maradydd @ioerror couldn't do anything right, because he was a designated fall guy.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror "Conflict resolution" assumes both parties want resolution.
@maradydd @ioerror "Conflict resolution" assumes both parties want resolution.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror Some people get drunk on the provocation and maintenance of conflict. Take the initiative, and then dominate.
@maradydd @ioerror Some people get drunk on the provocation and maintenance of conflict. Take the initiative, and then dominate.
x7o
Anemone of the State
@maradydd @ioerror's solidarity gesture is probably a rhetorical countermeasure. Still happiest way to terminate vicious cycle, imo.
@maradydd @ioerror's solidarity gesture is probably a rhetorical countermeasure. Still happiest way to terminate vicious cycle, imo.
maradydd
Meredith L Patterson
@ioerror Lord knows people have put their feet in it making assumptions while trying to act in solidarity before.
@ioerror Lord knows people have put their feet in it making assumptions while trying to act in solidarity before.
