ckindel
Charlie Kindel
If true, this is the kind of developer hostile thing that, if I still worked at MS, would inspire me to quit. buff.ly/KeeLIF
robertmclaws
Robert McLaws
@ckindel I can't honestly believe that @scottgu would not have forced a solution for this that just hasn't been discussed yet.
@ckindel I can't honestly believe that @scottgu would not have forced a solution for this that just hasn't been discussed yet.
cakeis_not_alie
Trevor Pott
@ckindel exit the Microsoft ecosystem NOW. They've made it clear they don't give a damn about anything but the middle of the bell curve.
@ckindel exit the Microsoft ecosystem NOW. They've made it clear they don't give a damn about anything but the middle of the bell curve.
TheRomit
Romit Mehta
@ckindel Developer-unfriendly, or setting a trend (i.e., discouraging/cutting off "legacy" support)?
@ckindel Developer-unfriendly, or setting a trend (i.e., discouraging/cutting off "legacy" support)?
sriramk
Sriram Krishnan
@ckindel i ran across the Windows SDK decision yday when trying to download windbg. Just a brain dead call imho.
@ckindel i ran across the Windows SDK decision yday when trying to download windbg. Just a brain dead call imho.
AboutDev
Sushant Bhatia
@ckindel I'm somewhat baffled by this piece. What about the open source editors and cmd line tools for dev. #2cents
@ckindel I'm somewhat baffled by this piece. What about the open source editors and cmd line tools for dev. #2cents
matthewcarriere
Matthew Carriere
@ckindel the whole windows dev eco system is going to a sandboxed Facebook app style model. times are changing, people need to adapt.
@ckindel the whole windows dev eco system is going to a sandboxed Facebook app style model. times are changing, people need to adapt.
ckindel
Charlie Kindel
.@matthewcarriere No, Microsoft needs to adapt. Dev tools exist to serve the platform. MS built a $B biz on them and has forgotten that.
.@matthewcarriere No, Microsoft needs to adapt. Dev tools exist to serve the platform. MS built a $B biz on them and has forgotten that.
matthewcarriere
Matthew Carriere
@ckindel I think MS has been charging for tools as long as I can remember, only recently creating 'express' versions. they never understood.
@ckindel I think MS has been charging for tools as long as I can remember, only recently creating 'express' versions. they never understood.
matthewcarriere
Matthew Carriere
@ckindel problem here is not communicating their directions… too many paths to take as an MS dev. Which one is supported in the future?
@ckindel problem here is not communicating their directions… too many paths to take as an MS dev. Which one is supported in the future?
matthewcarriere
Matthew Carriere
@ckindel look at Silverlight devs… basically thrown under a bus at this point.
@ckindel look at Silverlight devs… basically thrown under a bus at this point.
sumitkm
Sumit Maitra
@ckindel I think wording on the quoted pages are intentionally warped! I believe full asp net dev is possible with web express /@shanselman
@ckindel I think wording on the quoted pages are intentionally warped! I believe full asp net dev is possible with web express /@shanselman
ruysh
Christian Pedersen
@ckindel shameful, that sort of cannibalizing your own platform is definitely not a good path for Microsoft.
@ckindel shameful, that sort of cannibalizing your own platform is definitely not a good path for Microsoft.
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@ckindel Maybe I'm bias since I'm a dev but I don't think there should be any barriers stopping me from adding value to your platform.
@ckindel Maybe I'm bias since I'm a dev but I don't think there should be any barriers stopping me from adding value to your platform.
TheRomit
Romit Mehta
@kellabyte Question though, is if coding desktop apps is adding "value" or delaying the severing of the legacy? Extreme, I know, still....
@kellabyte Question though, is if coding desktop apps is adding "value" or delaying the severing of the legacy? Extreme, I know, still....
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@TheRomit Desktop applications are not legacy. It's a different but still valid user experience. Don't confuse bad experience with legacy.
@TheRomit Desktop applications are not legacy. It's a different but still valid user experience. Don't confuse bad experience with legacy.
TheRomit
Romit Mehta
@kellabyte It seems clear that Microsoft wants to take Windows apps away from the desktop apps and towards Metro-style apps.
@kellabyte It seems clear that Microsoft wants to take Windows apps away from the desktop apps and towards Metro-style apps.
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@TheRomit Metro being a style shouldn't mean the elimination of desktop applications.
@TheRomit Metro being a style shouldn't mean the elimination of desktop applications.
TheRomit
Romit Mehta
@kellabyte I am using "Metro style" because that's what MSFT says refers to the apps built on WinRT. That's the future. Not desktop apps.
@kellabyte I am using "Metro style" because that's what MSFT says refers to the apps built on WinRT. That's the future. Not desktop apps.
mbrit
Matt Baxter-Reynolds
@TheRomit @kellabyte I can't remember the last time I wrote a web app that didn't have a supporting windows service exe.
@TheRomit @kellabyte I can't remember the last time I wrote a web app that didn't have a supporting windows service exe.
ckindel
Charlie Kindel
@kellabyte 100% agree with you. MS lost sight of this in about 1992 when devdiv started making serious $$.
@kellabyte 100% agree with you. MS lost sight of this in about 1992 when devdiv started making serious $$.
Padraig
Padraig Kennedy
@ckindel @kellabyte Agree in principle, but I wonder if maybe Xcode would be better if it were directly profitable...
@ckindel @kellabyte Agree in principle, but I wonder if maybe Xcode would be better if it were directly profitable...
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@Padraig @ckindel Flip it other way around and realize the impact. Would iPhone be nearly as successful if Xcode costs thousands of dollars?
@Padraig @ckindel Flip it other way around and realize the impact. Would iPhone be nearly as successful if Xcode costs thousands of dollars?
Padraig
Padraig Kennedy
@kellabyte @ckindel Maybe not, but I don't think it's a given. There'd be infinitely less crap...
@kellabyte @ckindel Maybe not, but I don't think it's a given. There'd be infinitely less crap...
Padraig
Padraig Kennedy
@kellabyte @ckindel That said, the biggest barrier for me to trying any MS dev is Windows, which I'm not buying.
@kellabyte @ckindel That said, the biggest barrier for me to trying any MS dev is Windows, which I'm not buying.
migueldeicaza
Miguel de Icaza
@ckindel @kellabyte if my reading of the tea leaves is correct, this was a Windows group decision, and devdiv did what they were told to
@ckindel @kellabyte if my reading of the tea leaves is correct, this was a Windows group decision, and devdiv did what they were told to
oising
Oisin (x0n) Grehan
@migueldeicaza Where does that leave Xamarin now? Can you fill the gap or is there a risk of rug pulling?
@migueldeicaza Where does that leave Xamarin now? Can you fill the gap or is there a risk of rug pulling?
migueldeicaza
Miguel de Icaza
@oising we are too focused on Android and iOS; we will make MonoDevelop free in Win8 to target those :-)
@oising we are too focused on Android and iOS; we will make MonoDevelop free in Win8 to target those :-)
lazycoder
Scott Koon
@migueldeicaza @ckindel @kellabyte I think DevDiv lost a lot of their umph when Gu re-orged to Azure-world.
@migueldeicaza @ckindel @kellabyte I think DevDiv lost a lot of their umph when Gu re-orged to Azure-world.
ckindel
Charlie Kindel
@migueldeicaza Wrong. Win wants a free tool. Dev div does not. The compromise is something that is full of idiotic friction.
@migueldeicaza Wrong. Win wants a free tool. Dev div does not. The compromise is something that is full of idiotic friction.
Senkwe
Senkwe Chanda
@ckindel @migueldeicaza @DrPizza People are overreacting. There was a time not so long ago when Express didn't even exist. Nobody got hurt.
@ckindel @migueldeicaza @DrPizza People are overreacting. There was a time not so long ago when Express didn't even exist. Nobody got hurt.
DrPizza
Peter Bright
@Senkwe @ckindel @migueldeicaza Yes, there was. And then Microsoft realized that it couldn't continue to ignore open source.
@Senkwe @ckindel @migueldeicaza Yes, there was. And then Microsoft realized that it couldn't continue to ignore open source.
nberardi
Nick Berardi
@migueldeicaza @ckindel @kellabyte seems like another death flail of the increasingly irrelevant Windows group
@migueldeicaza @ckindel @kellabyte seems like another death flail of the increasingly irrelevant Windows group
ckindel
Charlie Kindel
@nberardi @migueldeicaza @kellabyte I wouldn't go THAT far. Windows is far from dead. Far.
@nberardi @migueldeicaza @kellabyte I wouldn't go THAT far. Windows is far from dead. Far.
nberardi
Nick Berardi
@ckindel @migueldeicaza @kellabyte that may be, but they aren't acting like it. With all these desperate and irrational moves
@ckindel @migueldeicaza @kellabyte that may be, but they aren't acting like it. With all these desperate and irrational moves
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@ckindel @nberardi @migueldeicaza Takes a crap ton more than this to kill off such an established product. Vista happened & still profit fwd
@ckindel @nberardi @migueldeicaza Takes a crap ton more than this to kill off such an established product. Vista happened & still profit fwd
nberardi
Nick Berardi
@kellabyte @ckindel @migueldeicaza agreed, but they aren't acting like a company with 92% share of the market, acting more like 50% share
@kellabyte @ckindel @migueldeicaza agreed, but they aren't acting like a company with 92% share of the market, acting more like 50% share
migueldeicaza
Miguel de Icaza
@nberardi @ckindel @kellabyte MS is trying to win tablets and need WinRT apps for that, so makes sense to only offer that option
@nberardi @ckindel @kellabyte MS is trying to win tablets and need WinRT apps for that, so makes sense to only offer that option
nberardi
Nick Berardi
@migueldeicaza @ckindel @kellabyte I get that, but they are sacrificing the desktop market for the tablet market, which is irrational
@migueldeicaza @ckindel @kellabyte I get that, but they are sacrificing the desktop market for the tablet market, which is irrational
migueldeicaza
Miguel de Icaza
@nberardi nah, they don't depend on users using express to keep windows desktop relevant
@nberardi nah, they don't depend on users using express to keep windows desktop relevant
nberardi
Nick Berardi
@migueldeicaza not just the express move, the Metro menu first, the devaluing of the desktop, etc. All add up to sacrificing PC for mobile
@migueldeicaza not just the express move, the Metro menu first, the devaluing of the desktop, etc. All add up to sacrificing PC for mobile
teyc
Chui Tey
@ckindel @kellabyte Building Metro Apps isn't free. It's a $100 annual subscription. VS11 Express is nothing but a free learning tool.
@ckindel @kellabyte Building Metro Apps isn't free. It's a $100 annual subscription. VS11 Express is nothing but a free learning tool.
PenLlawen
Richard Gaywood
@kellabyte @ckindel @DrPizza I’ll bite. As a dev, you presumably don’t give your software away. Why should the Visual Studio team?
@kellabyte @ckindel @DrPizza I’ll bite. As a dev, you presumably don’t give your software away. Why should the Visual Studio team?
DrPizza
Peter Bright
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel And they should give it away because Windows is nothing w/o 3rd party software.
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel And they should give it away because Windows is nothing w/o 3rd party software.
PenLlawen
Richard Gaywood
@DrPizza @kellabyte @ckindel Where does that logic end, though? Why not give Windows away to strengthen the Office platform?
@DrPizza @kellabyte @ckindel Where does that logic end, though? Why not give Windows away to strengthen the Office platform?
DrPizza
Peter Bright
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel Office's platform status is incidental. For most buyers, Office is not a means to an end; it is the end.
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel Office's platform status is incidental. For most buyers, Office is not a means to an end; it is the end.
PenLlawen
Richard Gaywood
@DrPizza @kellabyte @ckindel As a Java dev working with Eclipse, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t begrudge MS the income though.
@DrPizza @kellabyte @ckindel As a Java dev working with Eclipse, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I don’t begrudge MS the income though.
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@PenLlawen @DrPizza @ckindel Making a few well sized dollars risks far more broadly across the business & is opposite of the industry trend
@PenLlawen @DrPizza @ckindel Making a few well sized dollars risks far more broadly across the business & is opposite of the industry trend
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@DrPizza @PenLlawen @ckindel Less devs hurts OSS, desktop OS, server OS, cloud services, SQL server, operations software, community momentum
@DrPizza @PenLlawen @ckindel Less devs hurts OSS, desktop OS, server OS, cloud services, SQL server, operations software, community momentum
PenLlawen
Richard Gaywood
@kellabyte @DrPizza @ckindel As for this, do you really think any devs would be so put off by no free VS they won’t d/l Java/Python/etc?
@kellabyte @DrPizza @ckindel As for this, do you really think any devs would be so put off by no free VS they won’t d/l Java/Python/etc?
DrPizza
Peter Bright
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel I think in practice they'll pirate VS11 or stick with VS2010.
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel I think in practice they'll pirate VS11 or stick with VS2010.
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@ckindel @DrPizza @PenLlawen Opening the flood gates and embracing devs with all your heart will easily compensate devdiv in app store sales
@ckindel @DrPizza @PenLlawen Opening the flood gates and embracing devs with all your heart will easily compensate devdiv in app store sales
DrPizza
Peter Bright
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel What they won't do, IMO, is relent, and say "OK I'll make a Metro app after all".
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel What they won't do, IMO, is relent, and say "OK I'll make a Metro app after all".
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@PenLlawen @DrPizza @ckindel Yes. The VS pricing has always hurt Microsoft in the community. Making it further inclusive makes it worse.
@PenLlawen @DrPizza @ckindel Yes. The VS pricing has always hurt Microsoft in the community. Making it further inclusive makes it worse.
PenLlawen
Richard Gaywood
@kellabyte @DrPizza @ckindel I don’t think it matters much to commercial software houses. Even Team Suite is cheap compared to a salary.
@kellabyte @DrPizza @ckindel I don’t think it matters much to commercial software houses. Even Team Suite is cheap compared to a salary.
DrPizza
Peter Bright
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel I think you'd be surprised. IME, few private corps spring for MSDN Universal, for example. Too pricey.
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel I think you'd be surprised. IME, few private corps spring for MSDN Universal, for example. Too pricey.
PenLlawen
Richard Gaywood
@DrPizza @kellabyte @ckindel Well, we’re a .Net webdev shop; IIRC we pay more for server licences than dev tools.
@DrPizza @kellabyte @ckindel Well, we’re a .Net webdev shop; IIRC we pay more for server licences than dev tools.
DrPizza
Peter Bright
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel Making a business case for using Team Suite (instead of, say, git) is often quite hard.
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @ckindel Making a business case for using Team Suite (instead of, say, git) is often quite hard.
PenLlawen
Richard Gaywood
@kellabyte @DrPizza @ckindel Now, if you want to talk about what MS could to do gain credibility with FOSS devs, that’s harder.
@kellabyte @DrPizza @ckindel Now, if you want to talk about what MS could to do gain credibility with FOSS devs, that’s harder.
kellabyte
Kelly Sommers
@PenLlawen @ckindel @DrPizza There's a huge difference when your a platform shipping company. VS isn't the product, Win, WinSvr, Azure is.
@PenLlawen @ckindel @DrPizza There's a huge difference when your a platform shipping company. VS isn't the product, Win, WinSvr, Azure is.
ckindel
Charlie Kindel
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @DrPizza Because tools exist to bolster platform. Period.
@PenLlawen @kellabyte @DrPizza Because tools exist to bolster platform. Period.