topfunky
Geoffrey Grosenbach
The promise of Rails 3 was that you could "build your own mini Rails" with only what you need.
Is anyone actually doing that?
jashkenas
Jeremy Ashkenas
@topfunky I don't think so. IMHO, the consequences of the Merb merge was by far the worst misfortune to ever happen to Rails.
@topfunky I don't think so. IMHO, the consequences of the Merb merge was by far the worst misfortune to ever happen to Rails.
jashkenas
Jeremy Ashkenas
@j3 All forward progress stalled for nearly two years, it's *still* slower in many ways than Rails 2, Bundler is a nightmare, Node.js won.
@j3 All forward progress stalled for nearly two years, it's *still* slower in many ways than Rails 2, Bundler is a nightmare, Node.js won.
kleinmatic
Scott Klein
@jashkenas Funny thing about opinionated software. Doesn't work if you have bad opinions.
@jashkenas Funny thing about opinionated software. Doesn't work if you have bad opinions.
j3
Jeff Casimir
@jashkenas slowness I'm with you, Bundler is now solid IMO, and I'm too biased to evaluate the success of Node.
@jashkenas slowness I'm with you, Bundler is now solid IMO, and I'm too biased to evaluate the success of Node.
joefiorini
Joe Fiorini
@j3 @jashkenas Bundler has been nothing but great for me. Much better than config.gem or gems.txt.
@j3 @jashkenas Bundler has been nothing but great for me. Much better than config.gem or gems.txt.
teflonted
Teflon Ted
@jashkenas @j3 c'mon now you're saying bundler is more of a nightmare than npm?
@jashkenas @j3 c'mon now you're saying bundler is more of a nightmare than npm?
robconery
Rob Conery
@wycats @jashkenas @j3 But… the asset pipeline supports your stuff by default. That sounds like a bit of a low-blow in some ways.
@wycats @jashkenas @j3 But… the asset pipeline supports your stuff by default. That sounds like a bit of a low-blow in some ways.
wycats
wycats
@jashkenas github.com/rails/rails/co… 788 commits to Rails 2 while we were working on Rails 3, including 1.9 support. Hardly abandonware
@jashkenas github.com/rails/rails/co… 788 commits to Rails 2 while we were working on Rails 3, including 1.9 support. Hardly abandonware
jashkenas
Jeremy Ashkenas
@wycats Absolutely, which is one of the reasons I'm still happily using Rails 2 today.
@wycats Absolutely, which is one of the reasons I'm still happily using Rails 2 today.
jashkenas
Jeremy Ashkenas
@tomdale k. For a greenfield app, I'd probably go with Node. If Rails had evolved for the past 3 years, I'd like to think it'd be different.
@tomdale k. For a greenfield app, I'd probably go with Node. If Rails had evolved for the past 3 years, I'd like to think it'd be different.
tomdale
Tom Dale
@jashkenas Interesting. That hasn't been my experience, but I think you're more in the JS echo chamber and I'm in the Ruby one.
@jashkenas Interesting. That hasn't been my experience, but I think you're more in the JS echo chamber and I'm in the Ruby one.
jashkenas
Jeremy Ashkenas
@tomdale Ha. NYC can be more like an isolation tank than an echo chamber, web tech wise…
@tomdale Ha. NYC can be more like an isolation tank than an echo chamber, web tech wise…
tomdale
Tom Dale
@jashkenas The new stuff I've been involved with in the last few months has been Rails + either Backbone or Ember (tho, sampling bias)
@jashkenas The new stuff I've been involved with in the last few months has been Rails + either Backbone or Ember (tho, sampling bias)
tomdale
Tom Dale
@jashkenas I'm more excited about JS in the browser. When I need to make a JSON API for it to consume, Rails is a no-brainer.
@jashkenas I'm more excited about JS in the browser. When I need to make a JSON API for it to consume, Rails is a no-brainer.
tomdale
Tom Dale
@jashkenas Node is very exciting, but the best practices are all over the place and changing constantly.
@jashkenas Node is very exciting, but the best practices are all over the place and changing constantly.
knowtheory
Ted Han
@tomdale @jashkenas surely that's a maturity thing though. Same could be said for Rails several years back.
@tomdale @jashkenas surely that's a maturity thing though. Same could be said for Rails several years back.
tomdale
Tom Dale
@knowtheory Absolutely, but a lot of shops didn't choose Rails then for the same reason.
@knowtheory Absolutely, but a lot of shops didn't choose Rails then for the same reason.
jashkenas
Jeremy Ashkenas
@tomdale Agreed on all counts. Mostly I'm just sad that Rails 3.x doesn't feel qualitatively better than Rails 2.x. Same features, diff. API
@tomdale Agreed on all counts. Mostly I'm just sad that Rails 3.x doesn't feel qualitatively better than Rails 2.x. Same features, diff. API
tomdale
Tom Dale
@jashkenas Such is the price of eliminating technical debt. Personally very excited about the serializers work from @wycats and @josevalim.
@jashkenas Such is the price of eliminating technical debt. Personally very excited about the serializers work from @wycats and @josevalim.
wycats
wycats
@tomdale @jashkenas @josevalim that was the only real necessary breaking change, it took a while, and it was totally worth it
@tomdale @jashkenas @josevalim that was the only real necessary breaking change, it took a while, and it was totally worth it
jashkenas
Jeremy Ashkenas
@tomdale Yes, and I was hopeful at the time. 3 years later, I don't think it was close to worth it. That's all I'm saying. Still grateful.
@tomdale Yes, and I was hopeful at the time. 3 years later, I don't think it was close to worth it. That's all I'm saying. Still grateful.
wycats
wycats
@jashkenas @tomdale the biggest technical change, railties, created an API that Rails frameworks AND plugins could share (no privilege)
@jashkenas @tomdale the biggest technical change, railties, created an API that Rails frameworks AND plugins could share (no privilege)
knowtheory
Ted Han
@wycats @jashkenas @tomdale So what about @topfunky's original question, are ppl building their own rails? if not, why not?
@wycats @jashkenas @tomdale So what about @topfunky's original question, are ppl building their own rails? if not, why not?
wycats
wycats
@knowtheory @jashkenas @tomdale @topfunky people are most definitely using AR etc. outside of Rails with less headache.
@knowtheory @jashkenas @tomdale @topfunky people are most definitely using AR etc. outside of Rails with less headache.
knowtheory
Ted Han
@wycats @jashkenas @tomdale @topfunky who messes with the controller or view stack besides like… HAML/SASS?
@wycats @jashkenas @tomdale @topfunky who messes with the controller or view stack besides like… HAML/SASS?
wycats
wycats
@knowtheory @jashkenas @tomdale @topfunky me… often… serializers was trivial due to the changes renderers change made in Rails 3
@knowtheory @jashkenas @tomdale @topfunky me… often… serializers was trivial due to the changes renderers change made in Rails 3
mrb_bk
mrb
@jashkenas @tomdale I agree with this but hardly see the comparison between what Node is good at and what Rails is good at.
@jashkenas @tomdale I agree with this but hardly see the comparison between what Node is good at and what Rails is good at.
josevalim
José Valim
@jashkenas @tomdale if you are treating Rails 3 only as an app developer, sure. but rails 3 was always targeted at the plugin community.
@jashkenas @tomdale if you are treating Rails 3 only as an app developer, sure. but rails 3 was always targeted at the plugin community.
mmorri
Mike Morris
@jashkenas @tomdale node.js is definitely exciting and powerful, but Rails still feels more mature and cohesive as a platform
@jashkenas @tomdale node.js is definitely exciting and powerful, but Rails still feels more mature and cohesive as a platform
knowtheory
Ted Han
@jashkenas @tomdale I'd be interested in knowing which factors contribute to that calculus, incidentally.
@jashkenas @tomdale I'd be interested in knowing which factors contribute to that calculus, incidentally.
jacqui
Jacqui Maher Cox
@topfunky I'm currently trying to break out parts of ActionPack to handle rendering using AbstractController + custom resolvers. Tricky.
@topfunky I'm currently trying to break out parts of ActionPack to handle rendering using AbstractController + custom resolvers. Tricky.
knowtheory
Ted Han
@topfunky btw, there was this… github.com/carllerche/ast… but it didn't really go anywhere.
@topfunky btw, there was this… github.com/carllerche/ast… but it didn't really go anywhere.
RobotDeathSquad
BJ Clark
@topfunky I think most people are still trying to figure out what changed, other than all their plugins being broken.
@topfunky I think most people are still trying to figure out what changed, other than all their plugins being broken.
josevalim
José Valim
@RobotDeathSquad still trying to figure out? C'mon. Get the source code of most plugins, they are all using proper rails exts API.
@RobotDeathSquad still trying to figure out? C'mon. Get the source code of most plugins, they are all using proper rails exts API.
josevalim
José Valim
@RobotDeathSquad the ones that needed Rails 3 APIs to solve problems, they did it. It happens that usual app developers dont need.
@RobotDeathSquad the ones that needed Rails 3 APIs to solve problems, they did it. It happens that usual app developers dont need.
RobotDeathSquad
BJ Clark
@josevalim There are a ton of plugins that people depend on that don't work on rails 3, some even under github.com/rails?
@josevalim There are a ton of plugins that people depend on that don't work on rails 3, some even under github.com/rails?
RobotDeathSquad
BJ Clark
@josevalim but really, the important part of the tweet is that I think most people don't understand what changed between version.
@josevalim but really, the important part of the tweet is that I think most people don't understand what changed between version.
RobotDeathSquad
BJ Clark
@josevalim And they certainly aren't seeing any impact in their daily lives from the internal refactorings.
@josevalim And they certainly aren't seeing any impact in their daily lives from the internal refactorings.
josevalim
José Valim
@RobotDeathSquad that's fine for me. imo the refactoring was targeted at plugins. more stable apis -> more stable plugins.
@RobotDeathSquad that's fine for me. imo the refactoring was targeted at plugins. more stable apis -> more stable plugins.
josevalim
José Valim
@RobotDeathSquad for example, we wouldn't have so many ORMs for Rails 3 if we didn't have ActiveModel API.
@RobotDeathSquad for example, we wouldn't have so many ORMs for Rails 3 if we didn't have ActiveModel API.
josevalim
José Valim
@RobotDeathSquad the majority of devs don't use directly ActiveModel API. but they do use a lot those ORMs which are more stable since 3.0.
@RobotDeathSquad the majority of devs don't use directly ActiveModel API. but they do use a lot those ORMs which are more stable since 3.0.
josevalim
José Valim
@RobotDeathSquad that said, the impact in their lives is much more subtle but it is there via more powerful, stable plugins.
@RobotDeathSquad that said, the impact in their lives is much more subtle but it is there via more powerful, stable plugins.
tuxtux
Joel Westerberg
@topfunky wasn't the promise switch out things that work great together with things that might work great together -- if you really have to
@topfunky wasn't the promise switch out things that work great together with things that might work great together -- if you really have to
jerrykuch
jerrykuch
@topfunky I stopped paying attention before figuring out what it *meant*. What did it mean?
@topfunky I stopped paying attention before figuring out what it *meant*. What did it mean?